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Forum:2018-12-24 (Monday)
Discussion for comic for . Many editors make long wikis. ---- I don't know why the new page is dated Sunday rather than Monday, but I'm assuming it really is the Monday page. ➤ Well, those of you who predicted that the attacker would turn out to be Lucrezia were right. Does it follow that the Muse of Time was Lucrezia? I don't think so, but I'm clearly confused about the whole sequence of events. Oh well, at least I get maybe 1/4 point for noting that her hair looked like Agatha's. ➤ But Albia clearly survived the encounter, so maybe she'll have some useful information for our team. Bkharvey (talk) 06:39, December 24, 2018 (UTC) P.S. What's up with Lucrezia's left eye? Bkharvey (talk) 06:43, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : Worth a note that all the incarnations of the Muse we've seen, except the Beekeeper-Medusa version (who, based on the voice, may be fully mechanical) have their replaced or obscured by tech. Possibly we're looking at a progression of Lucrezia replacing all her meaty bits. PhoenixTalion (talk) 14:04, December 24, 2018 (UTC) :: There's also a difference between the eyes way back on . Argadi (talk) 14:25, December 24, 2018 (UTC) :: . :: So much to chew on. Have we seen any evidence that the Enigma is Van Rijn's MoT? They seem very different. Enigma appears helpful or at least willing to be listening to Agatha where the MoT is destructive and vindictive. If Lucrezia = MoT, there has been some serious family counseling between current day and the window on Page 4, etc. 9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :::More willing how? The sum total of Agatha's interaction with the "Enigma" is the phrase "...Like that?", not directed at her. PhoenixTalion (talk) 17:06, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :::. :::Good correction. I was conflating the common window frame and backdrop from the Enigma appearance and the Bang's log appearances. The two usages could have been at completely different times and with two completely different intents/controllers. 9thGeneral (talk) 01:56, December 27, 2018 (UTC) So...that looks like an older Lucrezia. Like, a couple decades older than we've ever seen her before. So is this a Lucrezia from a future/present alternate timeline where she, as "the other", successfully conquered Europa and the world, then having no worlds left to conquer, went to conquer the past? Or is this the present Lucrezia, who has been off somewhere/somewhen else battling the missing Heterodyne boys or forced into exile by them, trying to pull a Skynet to change the past in order to change her present? Or is this the ORIGINAL The Other, defeated long ago by Albia and the last of the old queens, who somehow arranged to be reborn milennia later as the daughter to Dr. Mongfish? Were the Geisters and/or the Sturmvoraus family awaiting her return even before she incarnated as Lucrezia? Is Agatha the product of a project to create the next The Other in case Lucrezia failed? So many questions, but hopefully we'll get some answers soon in the new year. Martin The Mess (talk) 08:46, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : Older, yes. Longer hair in front, too; she doesn't look like Oliver Twist any more. The Geisters might have been serving the Other before Lucrezia's birth, but I don't think that can be true of the Sturmvorauses, or else Tarvek would know about it. By the way, there's a widget of some sort on her left cheek, so I guess that it and the weird left eye I noticed before are part of some Borg-like enhancement technology. I guess this proves that I was right in thinking Google Glass was a diabolical invention! Bkharvey (talk) 09:00, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : Plus the peg legs. She appears to be slowly transforming herself into something Borgish. Possibly to emulate the Enigma on her way to becoming the MoT. Nice. So they'll battle and nearly defeat Lucrezia/The Other, but then she'll manage to jump back in time and kill almost all the Queens. — gpvos♫ 09:41, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : A nearly defeated Lucrezia would realize that the deaths of the queens led to her near defeat. To get the motivations right it would have to be a Lucrezia who thinks going back and killing the queens would help her. Argadi (talk) 11:41, December 24, 2018 (UTC) :: Lucrezia's Master Plan: ::# Kill all Sparks. ::# Mind control Europa. ::# Travel back in time to kill all Goddesses. ::# Transfer self into a Heterodyne body. ::# ??? ::# Profit! :: But no really, I'm really curious at what point . When Barry rescuenapped Agatha from the Geisters? When van Rijn When she started doing brain-swapping experiments while sitting on top of a poorly-understood power source associated with a Goddess? PhoenixTalion (talk) 14:04, December 24, 2018 (UTC) ::: So, if it's the Other who van Rijn trapped in a jar, perhaps his trapping was more sensible and less selfish than it appeared at the (our) time. (Especially if van Rijn turns out to be Tarvek, as some people believe, so he did the trapping knowing that it wouldn't make him immortal.) But, if it's Lucrezia, how does that relate to the seventh-dimensional meanies? Bkharvey (talk) 19:21, December 24, 2018 (UTC) ::::Does it need to, beyond the fact that meddling with time attracts their attention? PhoenixTalion (talk) 17:04, December 26, 2018 (UTC) ::: Okay, if we go by her appearance, and assuming she gets more constructy over (biological) time, she started out as Lucrezia Mongfish, used a Mirror to send Klaus to Skifander, married Bill, gave birth to Klaus Barry in public and Agatha in geisterland, then... attacked the Castle and killed K.B.? Or is that a later Other looping back in time? Because I can't see what she gains by attacking the Castle when she's flourishing in it. She thinks she has to "die" so people wouldn't know she's the Other? And then, I guess, after aging 20 years during the Other war, gets her first visual prosthesis and goes back in time to attack the Queens. And then, a long enough time later that she looks more construct than human, appears to the Geisters telling them to find Agatha, then appears to Agatha, starting the story, then ... gets captured by van Rijn? But in order to get captured by him, she'd have to go way back in time, for some reason. And then gets released by Agatha. We don't think, do we, that she went to the trouble of giving birth to Agatha and then having the Geisters plant herself in her, just to maneuver her to the vaults under Paris to free her? ➤ ::: The problem -- one problem anyway -- with this story is that she apparently expected Bill or Barry or Klaus to rescue her from... van Rijn's trap? From Geisterland? Or maybe we're going to find out that Albia captured her before van Rijn did? How were they supposed to know she needed rescuing? And after Agatha frees her, in that grotesque body, what does she do? Just copy herself into the holy machine and die? Bkharvey (talk) 02:54, December 25, 2018 (UTC) :::: (Answering myself!) But when she comes alive inside Agatha, she doesn't know about (for example) Zola. So the Lucrezia in the holy machine can't be much older than she would be expected to be, if she was copied into the holy machine at around the time of the attack on the castle. Bkharvey (talk) 06:32, December 25, 2018 (UTC) :::::I think the most recent update to the Summoning Engine copy of Lucrezia came ~5 years after the attack on the Castle, when she sent the Geisters out. He first words in Agatha are "You found her!" meaning that version of her knew Barry had taken Agatha. Her whole bit to the Geisters about "the Time of Prophecy, beyond which even our Lady could not see" makes me think any future knowledge Lucrezia had ended shortly after Agatha's birth. PhoenixTalion (talk) 17:04, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :::: Oh wait, did she kill K.B. so that Agatha would be the Heterodyne? ''Presumably she expected Agatha really to be herself post-holy-machine. The lack of an alternative candidate helped her in claiming the position herself (her=Agatha). But then, why is Lucrezia so resistent to going to Mechanicsburg? Oh please clear up my confusion... Bkharvey (talk) 11:02, December 25, 2018 (UTC) ::::: I'm not even sure killing KB was specifically part of the plan as opposed to 'you can't attain ultimate power without breaking a few eggs'. If I were a malevolent genius bent on disposing of inconvenient offspring, it seems like there are better ways to do it than setting off an undirected explosion somewhere in the castle. Particularly when the kid's nursemaid is a construct of your own creation. And what caused the explosion itself anyway? Was it intentional or a side effect? We still don't know. PhoenixTalion (talk) 17:04, December 26, 2018 (UTC) ::::: ::::: It's possible that she thought she could use Agatha to get access to the Heterodyne's resources. Another idea is, if something in Agatha's nature makes her innately suited to goddesshood (or at least second breakthroughs), was Lucrezia planning on using that herself as part of her plan to supplant Albia and friends? i.e. Possibly Lucrezia wanted her for something other than the voice or hereditary rights to the Castle. 08:52, December 28, 2018 (UTC) :::: The whole key to unwinding this is what did Lucrezia know and when did she know it? We have lots of tidbits about her actions, but until we can guess why she did what she did, we can't fully get the timeline. :::: Can we trace Lucrezia’s movements through our pedestrian, linear time and then figure out where she’s been jumping and when? 9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) Events linked to the Lucrezia time travel: (a) Older, but still mostly human but somewhat cyborg Lucrezia is killing queens 1000+ years ago, possibly using the same portal hack that was at the Refuge of Storms. But why? (b) Lucrezia-as-Muse-of-Time is trapped by Van Rijn for 200 years and then releases herself as Lucrezia-in-Agatha. © Young (Bill, Barry, & Klaus era) Lucrezia travels (presumably by portal) to the Geister dimension (location and/or time) multiple times to set up their worship of her. She is described as “lovely”, not haggard, crazed and with a wonky eye. She could do this many times in her timeline whitout aging in the timeline of an individual Geister. (d) Some version of Lucrezia as the Other attacks the castle. With what purpose? It wasn’t to kill Barry and/or Bill, they weren’t there, or Agatha as seemingly no one knew she existed and she probably had not been born yet. : I again suggest that the purpose was to kill baby KBH, so there will be no competition when Agatha runs for The Heterodyne. Bkharvey (talk) 05:47, December 26, 2018 (UTC) (e) Lucrezia uses the mirrors to send Klaus to Skifander. How and when is a tale that we excitedly await. : This must actually come before (d), because it's just before her marriage with Bill, and people like Carson keep taking pains to point out that KBH was born > 9 months later. Bkharvey (talk) 05:47, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :: Yes, you are right. I had forgotten about the pzind drng. But when she didn't pzin the drng, she was determined to become one of the good guys. But to get rid of Klaus toSkifander, she would have had to use a mirror (?). So she pushes Klaus to Skifander using a mirror that is not the Heterodyne mirror and then discovers the Geisters and the sumacwhatzits? 9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) (f) She returns to Geisterland and then leaves infant Agatha to go…somewhere, somewhen on her own or under duress. (g) Somewhere within all of this, Lucrezia sets up consciousness transfer and has the fore-knowledge to tell The Order to find her daughter and transfer her personality from storage into Agatha as a vessel. Was it fore knowledge based on time travel? : This should actually help us order things. 200 years ago she ''didn't know enough to keep van Rijn from trapping her, but she did (by hypothesis herein) know enough to prep Agatha to rescue her, or if not, then she was capable of independent agency while in the trap. Do we know which came first, return of Klaus or birth of Agatha? Bkharvey (talk) 05:47, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :: During her long internment with Van Rijn, she would have seen all of the workings of the containment device. She would have kept these memories when she was put into the backup drive and then restored to LiA.9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) Hm. Well, birth of Agatha may not have happened in this timeline. From Barry's wiki entry, "Klaus says that Barry's deciphered (but partially destroyed) notes indicate that the reason Barry hid from Klaus upon his return with Agatha was that he believed Klaus to be working for The Other." That seems to indicate return of Klaus comes first. 08:52, December 28, 2018 (UTC) (h) Barry rescuenaps (nice phrase along with the U.Gnome reference) Agatha from Geisterland and then goes into hiding with Adam and Lilith (i) Barry disappears and has been gone for seven years to Lilith's dismay. (j) Klaus comes back, also apparently via the mirrors. This happens after LatO runs amok as the other and after she disappears into her consciousness storage vessel. We know this because she didn’t know that Klaus had come back when she first meets Tarvek as LiA. Adam and Lilith don’t want to talk to Klaus, possibly because of the Agatha connection, but possibly because of some other to-be-revealed interesting back story. (k) Lucrezia gets installed in Agatha. “It has been so long since I’ve been human” What was she in the interim? Had she been slowly transforming herself into a clank with a human-derived consciousness before she did her brain backup? (l) Lucrezia-in-Agatha complains about being trapped for a very long time before succumbing to sleepy cake. Decent bet that she is referring to (b). : You're probably right, but that means the Holy Machine copy knew about being trapped and rescued, which hadn't happened yet at the time of her complaint. Bkharvey (talk) 05:47, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :: This is an important part of the timeline because it shows that she is jumping around in time before she gets put into storage. She is released from Van Rijn's containment after watching him operate it. She takes that knowledge back to our present day and plugs it in to Agatha. 9thGeneral (talk) 18:11, December 26, 2018 (UTC) (m) Agatha discovers LaMoT in Van Rijn’s laboratory and LiA influences Agatha to release the trapped LaMoT. “to see humans after so long is good”. Has she been seeing other types of beings? After this, most of the references about Lucrezia have been memories backwards or actions forwards. So, possible chain of Lucrezia events: somewhen in her normal timeline, she got ahold of a mirror, possibly the one in the basement of the Mechanicsburg church. She starts to play with it because…spark… and gets to Geisterland. She learns about the sumacwhatzits and realizes that they could be the key to her Plan to Take Over the World (Narf!). She tries to take over the world as The Other, realizes that she is losing, and sets up her plan to come back and make them rue the day. She sets up The Order with the Restore Personality machine. Then goes back in time to go after the ancient queens for...reasons...using a mirror hacking machine in the Refuge of Storms. She has to jump around a lot in the process and loses more and more of her humanity because (as Albia foreshadows with the oily air comment) she is going to lose various body parts every time. Eventually Van Rijin captures her (for altruistic or selfish reasons) where she is imprisoned for 200 years. 9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) : Yay, another Animaniacs fan! Good to meet you. Bkharvey (talk) 05:47, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :: The pleasure is mine. ::Apologies for the long post. As is canonized by the perfessers, in-laws can be...interestink. ::9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) ::: Walls of text are fine, but for fuck's sake sign them. PhoenixTalion (talk) 17:04, December 26, 2018 (UTC) Man, I'm so used to waiting three years for the answers I want that I have no idea how to process this information right away. But I think it just got a lot harder for Agatha to leave England. Also, I don't want to miss the fact that Lucrezia's fork-arm is described as having similar atmospheric effects as Gil's lightning generator. PhoenixTalion (talk) 14:04, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : Harder to leave with the Other in her brain. Or maybe Albia will provide more support for expelling the Other from Agatha. Argadi (talk) 14:25, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : It could be the other way around. It seems like Albia originally wanted to convince Agatha to stay around as part of her "garden" (not that we exactly know what that means yet). But after this revelation, Albia may be more focused on doing whatever is necessary to destroy the Other. Which, depending on how she sees things, may mean letting Agatha go out to work against her in Europa, or detaining her indefinitely, or trying to get at the copy of Lucrezia (and her memories) in Agatha's head. Quantheory (talk) 19:32, December 24, 2018 (UTC) A few random thoughts to fuel mad theories: # Interesting how this is the closest we've ever seen Lucrezia look to Von Pinn. It seems like Von Pinn's body was destroyed in Castle Heterodyne, and that body was younger than Lucrezia looks in the flashback here, but there could still be a connection if either body is from an alternate timeline. # The aging and mechanical parts make it look like Lucrezia is not a "God-Queen", despite having superior technology to the Queens. Perhaps her cyborg nature, combined with her ability to copy her mind into new/young bodies, has convinced her that she doesn't need the kind of immortality that the Queens have? Or she simply doesn't know how they became immortal? Or she has some kind of anti-Queen weapon, and doesn't want to be vulnerable to it herself? ## Imortality is a constant pursuit of the evil or at least unwise in many a story going from Tom Riddle back to Ashwatthama . 9thGeneral (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2018 (UTC) # The Geisterdamen, however, seem to describe their goddess as appearing to be an immortal being similar to a God-Queen, up until around the beginning of the Other War. This implies that either Lucrezia is an imposter who replaced their original goddess, or that she's some kind of non-immortal "rebirth" of their goddess. In the latter case, why have none of her modern copies displayed that level of ancient knowledge? Is this the problem with not enough memories fitting in a normal human mind? Quantheory (talk) 19:32, December 24, 2018 (UTC) :: Re: 3: Another possibility is that Lucrezia used her time-travel ability, before aging/getting cybered, to trick the Geisters into thinking she was immortal. It would explain Zola's "fraud" comment when talking to Lu-in-Agatha. --Geoduck42 (talk) 13:14, December 25, 2018 (UTC) Has Lucrezia visited England? That is, why does Albia recognize her? Bkharvey (talk) 22:17, December 25, 2018 (UTC) P.S. Happy holiday of your choice! Bkharvey (talk) 23:43, December 25, 2018 (UTC) Note: Redirect page created I made "Forum:2018-12-23 (Sunday)" redirect to "Forum:2018-12-24 (Monday)" (this page). I hope that doesn't break anything. Bkharvey (talk) 09:53, December 24, 2018 (UTC) : No, your redirect was actually very helpful and saved me some time. Thank you. Without it, the forum link generated automatically by the GG link template for this Sunday page would lead to a non-existent page (red link). I had to adjust the date in the Chronology so that the link to the page of the comic would work, which would have also created a red link there to the non-existent "Sunday" forum page without your redirect.♦ : This has happened before; every once in a long while, Kaja publishes a mis-dated page, usually a Monday page with a Sunday date. It is always a bit of an annoyance when it does, since it throws of the links in this wiki, but this can be fixed with re-directs, as you realized. Sometimes after this happens the mis-dated page is corrected and republished, but not always. If the Foglios re-date the page, the Chronology will have to be adjusted again, so I'll have to keep an eye on it. -- William Ansley (talk) 12:09, December 24, 2018 (UTC)